Comments on: Shang’s secret – the hydra of homoeomythology http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/2008/07/04/shangs-secret-the-hydra-of-homoeomythology/ Scotty, The Naked Time, stardate 1704.3, Episode 7 Thu, 05 Nov 2009 12:26:56 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: apgaylard http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/2008/07/04/shangs-secret-the-hydra-of-homoeomythology/#comment-398 apgaylard Mon, 07 Jul 2008 18:38:55 +0000 http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/?p=123#comment-398 wilsontown: Thanks, they certainly do. Good post on your blog by the way. wilsontown:
Thanks, they certainly do. Good post on your blog by the way.

]]> By: wilsontown http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/2008/07/04/shangs-secret-the-hydra-of-homoeomythology/#comment-397 wilsontown Mon, 07 Jul 2008 13:02:58 +0000 http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/?p=123#comment-397 The homeopaths continue to say the thing that is not. It's striking how anything that looks vaguely positive for homeopathy will get wheeled out forever, but anything negative at all goes straight down <a href="http://hawk-handsaw.blogspot.com/2008/07/homeopathic-memory-hole-not-much.html" rel="nofollow">the homeopathic memory hole</a>... The homeopaths continue to say the thing that is not. It’s striking how anything that looks vaguely positive for homeopathy will get wheeled out forever, but anything negative at all goes straight down the homeopathic memory hole…

]]> By: Scientific Research in Homeopathy - Alex Tournier misleads « gimpy’s blog http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/2008/07/04/shangs-secret-the-hydra-of-homoeomythology/#comment-395 Scientific Research in Homeopathy - Alex Tournier misleads « gimpy’s blog Sun, 06 Jul 2008 16:27:05 +0000 http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/?p=123#comment-395 [...] Quackometer and apgaylard have already examined Lionel Milgrom’s evidence and found it artificially engorged with [...] [...] Quackometer and apgaylard have already examined Lionel Milgrom’s evidence and found it artificially engorged with [...]

]]> By: apgaylard http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/2008/07/04/shangs-secret-the-hydra-of-homoeomythology/#comment-394 apgaylard Sun, 06 Jul 2008 08:58:30 +0000 http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/?p=123#comment-394 Dvnutrix: That may well be, for Milgrom at least. However, I've spotted something I missed in the THES piece comments. Dr A Tournier said of the Shang paper that it, <i>"does not give the reference to the 8+6 trials on which it draws its conclusion"</i>[27 June, 2008]. Later Dr A Tournier PhD said, "Re the Shang etal 2005, <i>yes the references were given</i> after much pressure was exerted" [30 June, 2008]. Assuming that these commenters are the same person it very much looks like either highly selective amnesia or they are being <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Clark#Career" rel="nofollow">economical with the <i>actualité</i></a> when they construct their fantasies. Dvnutrix:
That may well be, for Milgrom at least. However, I’ve spotted something I missed in the THES piece comments. Dr A Tournier said of the Shang paper that it, “does not give the reference to the 8+6 trials on which it draws its conclusion”[27 June, 2008]. Later Dr A Tournier PhD said, “Re the Shang etal 2005, yes the references were given after much pressure was exerted” [30 June, 2008]. Assuming that these commenters are the same person it very much looks like either highly selective amnesia or they are being economical with the actualité when they construct their fantasies.

]]> By: dvnutrix http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/2008/07/04/shangs-secret-the-hydra-of-homoeomythology/#comment-393 dvnutrix Sat, 05 Jul 2008 21:24:13 +0000 http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/?p=123#comment-393 Whether it is flap-doodler or babblegabbler, both capture the recurrent pattern that most of these peoplesound like Leonard Sachs, banging his gavel and MCing <i>The Good Old Days</i>. There must be a health tonic somehwere that most of them take and that has an ingredient that expands the vocabulary in unhelpful ways while simulatenously conferring amnesia for the inconvenient. Whether it is flap-doodler or babblegabbler, both capture the recurrent pattern that most of these peoplesound like Leonard Sachs, banging his gavel and MCing The Good Old Days.

There must be a health tonic somehwere that most of them take and that has an ingredient that expands the vocabulary in unhelpful ways while simulatenously conferring amnesia for the inconvenient.

]]> By: apgaylard http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/2008/07/04/shangs-secret-the-hydra-of-homoeomythology/#comment-392 apgaylard Sat, 05 Jul 2008 12:13:09 +0000 http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/?p=123#comment-392 pleick: Thanks for your insight; I hope you get around to writing the letter. It would be really good to get this myth slain in the homeopathic literature. lecanardnoir: Excellent, love your turn of phrase. As for mine, I have to credit <a href="http://www.williamjames.com/transcripts/gell1.htm" rel="nofollow">Murray Gell-Mann</a>. pleick:
Thanks for your insight; I hope you get around to writing the letter. It would be really good to get this myth slain in the homeopathic literature.

lecanardnoir:
Excellent, love your turn of phrase. As for mine, I have to credit Murray Gell-Mann.

]]> By: lecanardnoir http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/2008/07/04/shangs-secret-the-hydra-of-homoeomythology/#comment-391 lecanardnoir Sat, 05 Jul 2008 11:41:33 +0000 http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/?p=123#comment-391 I love the description of Milgrom being the <b>quantum flap-doodler extraordinaire</b>. I have published my own analysis of Milgrom's 'New Fundamentalism' today. I call him a Bafflegabbler - someone whose multiloquence is characterized by consummate interfusion of circumlocution or periphrasis, inscrutability, and other familiar manifestations of abstruse expatiation. <a href="http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2008/07/new-fundamentalism-why-lionel-milgrom.html" rel="nofollow">The "New Fundamentalism": Why Lionel Milgrom is Plain Wrong (Again)</a> I love the description of Milgrom being the quantum flap-doodler extraordinaire. I have published my own analysis of Milgrom’s ‘New Fundamentalism’ today. I call him a Bafflegabbler – someone whose multiloquence is characterized by consummate interfusion of circumlocution or periphrasis, inscrutability, and other familiar manifestations of abstruse expatiation.

The “New Fundamentalism”: Why Lionel Milgrom is Plain Wrong (Again)

]]> By: pleick http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/2008/07/04/shangs-secret-the-hydra-of-homoeomythology/#comment-389 pleick Sat, 05 Jul 2008 09:13:24 +0000 http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/?p=123#comment-389 And that coming from a researcher whose pet theory rigorously proves that randomized, double-blind trials are <i>not</i> the correct way to test homeopathy, since the blinding destroys the 3-way entanglement between patient, practitioner and remedy. But who are we to criticize: when the evidence is bad, you have to use every good story you can, never mind the facts. Seriously, somebody should write them a letter... Regarding Milgrom, I'll just point out that he brought up the "secret 8 trials"-myth in his reply to my criticism of his theory (doi:10.1016/j.homp.2008.02.002, behind paywall) even though I haven't mentioned it in my letter (doi:10.1016/j.homp.2007.11.007). The <i>"absence of studies that clearly demonstrate the superiority of homeopathic remedies over placebos in randomized, controlled double-blind trials (RCT) and the implausibility of the claim that dilutions beyond Avogadro’s limit can have any specific effect"</i> I mentioned, can be justified by about any sample of non-fraudulent studies, I believe. I have half a mind to reply, but very little time at the moment. Still, I might get to it, eventually. And that coming from a researcher whose pet theory rigorously proves that randomized, double-blind trials are not the correct way to test homeopathy, since the blinding destroys the 3-way entanglement between patient, practitioner and remedy.
But who are we to criticize: when the evidence is bad, you have to use every good story you can, never mind the facts.

Seriously, somebody should write them a letter…
Regarding Milgrom, I’ll just point out that he brought up the “secret 8 trials”-myth in his reply to my criticism of his theory (doi:10.1016/j.homp.2008.02.002, behind paywall) even though I haven’t mentioned it in my letter (doi:10.1016/j.homp.2007.11.007). The “absence of studies that clearly demonstrate the superiority of homeopathic remedies over placebos in randomized, controlled double-blind trials (RCT) and the implausibility of the claim that dilutions beyond Avogadro’s limit can have any specific effect” I mentioned, can be justified by about any sample of non-fraudulent studies, I believe.
I have half a mind to reply, but very little time at the moment. Still, I might get to it, eventually.

]]> By: apgaylard http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/2008/07/04/shangs-secret-the-hydra-of-homoeomythology/#comment-388 apgaylard Sat, 05 Jul 2008 07:20:52 +0000 http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/?p=123#comment-388 gimpy: Quite. I look forward to reading your post. I'll be posting on Milgrom's determined misunderstanding of philosophy next. Basically a re-run of our exchange of <a>letters</a> in <i>Homeopathy</i>, with some new mistakes. As you say, progress of sorts. gimpy:
Quite. I look forward to reading your post. I’ll be posting on Milgrom’s determined misunderstanding of philosophy next. Basically a re-run of our exchange of letters in Homeopathy, with some new mistakes. As you say, progress of sorts.

]]> By: gimpy http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/2008/07/04/shangs-secret-the-hydra-of-homoeomythology/#comment-387 gimpy Sat, 05 Jul 2008 06:22:33 +0000 http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/?p=123#comment-387 There are many more inconsistencies and misinterpretations in these presentations. I will have a post up on Alex Tournier's interesting interpretation of the scientific method and homeopathy research later on today. It's mostly the same old lies with a couple of new ones thrown in. Progress. There are many more inconsistencies and misinterpretations in these presentations. I will have a post up on Alex Tournier’s interesting interpretation of the scientific method and homeopathy research later on today. It’s mostly the same old lies with a couple of new ones thrown in. Progress.

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