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	<title>Comments on: The Myth of The Secret Eight</title>
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	<link>http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/2007/11/28/the-myth-of-the-secret-eight/</link>
	<description>Scotty, The Naked Time, stardate 1704.3, Episode 7</description>
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		<title>By: apgaylard</title>
		<link>http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/2007/11/28/the-myth-of-the-secret-eight/#comment-87</link>
		<dc:creator>apgaylard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 22:33:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/2007/11/28/the-myth-of-the-secret-eight/#comment-87</guid>
		<description>pleick:

I agree, in &#039;altie&#039; world one has to check everything.  In my professional role I have got into the habit of checking references when I referee.

However, my biggest complaint is ususally the &lt;i&gt;absence&lt;/i&gt; of appropriate references.  To appropriate a term from Kuhn, &quot;normal science&quot; is an incremental process; it&#039;s vital to set work in an appropriate context.  In my experience an increasing number of authors fail to do this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>pleick:</p>
<p>I agree, in &#8216;altie&#8217; world one has to check everything.  In my professional role I have got into the habit of checking references when I referee.</p>
<p>However, my biggest complaint is ususally the <i>absence</i> of appropriate references.  To appropriate a term from Kuhn, &#8220;normal science&#8221; is an incremental process; it&#8217;s vital to set work in an appropriate context.  In my experience an increasing number of authors fail to do this.</p>
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		<title>By: pleick</title>
		<link>http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/2007/11/28/the-myth-of-the-secret-eight/#comment-86</link>
		<dc:creator>pleick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 22:24:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>True, it&#039;s not just the &quot;alties&quot;. Now your last comment does worry me a bit! Like you, I&#039;m a physicist/engineer, I work in the automotive industry and publish papers in automotive conferences...

I do know that referencing is often far from perfect - even in serious disciplines or good journals. But  honestly, if I were to referee a paper, I&#039;d generally take the references on trust - unless I already knew the source or if it was very important to check exactly what the source says. This may be asking too much, but correct referencing seems just like correct spelling: a basic skill. Of course there will be the occasional typo (just check my posts!), but a referee should look at more important aspects than basic technical details.

Of course, having read quite a few papers on &quot;fringe&quot; topics... my experience is that THERE, checking the references is of cardinal importance. To sum it up: in alternative journals, concerning bad referencing, it&#039;s &quot;look and you shall find&quot;. It doesn&#039;t even take too much effort... In my own field, my limited experience tells me something else: there is the exceptional truely dishonest quotation, but mostly, some slight exagerations, a little bit of cherry picking... not the highest standards, just normal human character flaws...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>True, it&#8217;s not just the &#8220;alties&#8221;. Now your last comment does worry me a bit! Like you, I&#8217;m a physicist/engineer, I work in the automotive industry and publish papers in automotive conferences&#8230;</p>
<p>I do know that referencing is often far from perfect &#8211; even in serious disciplines or good journals. But  honestly, if I were to referee a paper, I&#8217;d generally take the references on trust &#8211; unless I already knew the source or if it was very important to check exactly what the source says. This may be asking too much, but correct referencing seems just like correct spelling: a basic skill. Of course there will be the occasional typo (just check my posts!), but a referee should look at more important aspects than basic technical details.</p>
<p>Of course, having read quite a few papers on &#8220;fringe&#8221; topics&#8230; my experience is that THERE, checking the references is of cardinal importance. To sum it up: in alternative journals, concerning bad referencing, it&#8217;s &#8220;look and you shall find&#8221;. It doesn&#8217;t even take too much effort&#8230; In my own field, my limited experience tells me something else: there is the exceptional truely dishonest quotation, but mostly, some slight exagerations, a little bit of cherry picking&#8230; not the highest standards, just normal human character flaws&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: apgaylard</title>
		<link>http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/2007/11/28/the-myth-of-the-secret-eight/#comment-85</link>
		<dc:creator>apgaylard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 17:42:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/2007/11/28/the-myth-of-the-secret-eight/#comment-85</guid>
		<description>pleick:
Thanks for your comments and taking the trouble to read my posts.

Your comment is spot on; unfortunately it&#039;s not just the &#039;altie&#039; literature that shows a distinct lack of integrity with referencing.  

I read a terrible example in a paper that I refereed for a major automotive engineering conference last year:  the reference said the exact opposite of what the author said it said!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>pleick:<br />
Thanks for your comments and taking the trouble to read my posts.</p>
<p>Your comment is spot on; unfortunately it&#8217;s not just the &#8216;altie&#8217; literature that shows a distinct lack of integrity with referencing.  </p>
<p>I read a terrible example in a paper that I refereed for a major automotive engineering conference last year:  the reference said the exact opposite of what the author said it said!</p>
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		<title>By: pleick</title>
		<link>http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/2007/11/28/the-myth-of-the-secret-eight/#comment-83</link>
		<dc:creator>pleick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Dec 2007 10:51:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/2007/11/28/the-myth-of-the-secret-eight/#comment-83</guid>
		<description>An important post, as the study by Shang is often criticised for its &quot;secrecy&quot;.

In one of your previous posts, you did some research about trials often cited that, apparently, prove homeopathy&#039;s effectiveness. The results really are disheartening. Time and again, in alternative journals, you have to check the sources and references. Because more often than not, they don&#039;t say what the author claims or implicates that they say.
One of the things that make wading through these articles so tedious...

The Lancet article by Shang et al. is a nice counter example: a quick search reveals the necessary information.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An important post, as the study by Shang is often criticised for its &#8220;secrecy&#8221;.</p>
<p>In one of your previous posts, you did some research about trials often cited that, apparently, prove homeopathy&#8217;s effectiveness. The results really are disheartening. Time and again, in alternative journals, you have to check the sources and references. Because more often than not, they don&#8217;t say what the author claims or implicates that they say.<br />
One of the things that make wading through these articles so tedious&#8230;</p>
<p>The Lancet article by Shang et al. is a nice counter example: a quick search reveals the necessary information.</p>
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		<title>By: apgaylard</title>
		<link>http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/2007/11/28/the-myth-of-the-secret-eight/#comment-82</link>
		<dc:creator>apgaylard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2007 14:21:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/2007/11/28/the-myth-of-the-secret-eight/#comment-82</guid>
		<description>&lt;a&gt;Here&lt;/a&gt;, commenting on this, as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a>Here</a>, commenting on this, as well.</p>
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		<title>By: dannychrastina</title>
		<link>http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/2007/11/28/the-myth-of-the-secret-eight/#comment-81</link>
		<dc:creator>dannychrastina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 06:40:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/2007/11/28/the-myth-of-the-secret-eight/#comment-81</guid>
		<description>Not a moment too soon, because &lt;a href=&quot;http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=3199979#post3199979&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; is Dana Ullman:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Perhaps, SOMEONE can finally tell us which were the 21 homeopathic trials and the 9 allopathic ones. Shang NEVER divulged, most likely because this review would show real benefits from homeopathic treatment. Isn&#039;t anyone suspicious of &quot;black box&quot; comparison studies like this? Why are only the homeopaths complaining here about junk science? Hmmmm.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not a moment too soon, because <a href="http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=3199979#post3199979" rel="nofollow">here</a> is Dana Ullman:</p>
<blockquote><p>Perhaps, SOMEONE can finally tell us which were the 21 homeopathic trials and the 9 allopathic ones. Shang NEVER divulged, most likely because this review would show real benefits from homeopathic treatment. Isn&#8217;t anyone suspicious of &#8220;black box&#8221; comparison studies like this? Why are only the homeopaths complaining here about junk science? Hmmmm.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: apgaylard</title>
		<link>http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/2007/11/28/the-myth-of-the-secret-eight/#comment-80</link>
		<dc:creator>apgaylard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:29:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Wilsontown:  Thanks.  This one has been on my mind for a while.  I must have dowloaded the PDF files over a year ago.  Thanks for your CIF post; it galvanised me into action!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wilsontown:  Thanks.  This one has been on my mind for a while.  I must have dowloaded the PDF files over a year ago.  Thanks for your CIF post; it galvanised me into action!</p>
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		<title>By: wilsontown</title>
		<link>http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/2007/11/28/the-myth-of-the-secret-eight/#comment-79</link>
		<dc:creator>wilsontown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:19:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Excellent stuff. Was going to write something on this myself, but now I think I needn&#039;t bother.

I&#039;ve yet to see a critique of the Shang et al. meta-analysis that stands up to scrutiny, and I&#039;ve been looking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent stuff. Was going to write something on this myself, but now I think I needn&#8217;t bother.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve yet to see a critique of the Shang et al. meta-analysis that stands up to scrutiny, and I&#8217;ve been looking.</p>
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		<title>By: dannychrastina</title>
		<link>http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/2007/11/28/the-myth-of-the-secret-eight/#comment-78</link>
		<dc:creator>dannychrastina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:09:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Nice digging.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice digging.</p>
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